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PostPosted: March 25th, 2011, 9:28 pm 
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Location: Moose Pass, Alaska
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Gene Carroll
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Member # 2507

posted March 25, 2011 03:17 AM
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I just resigned my memberhip to The Washington State Bowhunters today..

It was brought to my attention in a quartly publication from the "Traditional Bowhunter of Washington" today, that the "Washington State Bowhunters" whom have traditionally acted on behalf of the bowhunters of our state in working with the state game dept as to season recommendations, and establishing definations of legal archery equipment for Bowhunting, are proposing major changes to their by-laws.

Recently, a new younger group, has gained control of that time honored organization... They are now proposing changes, directly in opposition to those in effect. Our previous rules and regulations were based on "Fair Chase" mirroring those observed by the Pope and Young club.

They are now proposing as a way to increase membership, the legalization of the use of lighted nocks and electronic equiptment on bows..

Since this is directly contrary to my personal defination of Bowhunting, I have resigned form the organization and requested my name be removed from the membership roster rather than be represented in such a manner.

As a point of clarificaton, I have tried corresponding with them over these proposed changes and they fail to respond.

I choose to continue alliance with TBW and PBS who's ideals and ethics I am 100% in agreement with.

Gene Carroll

[ March 25, 2011, 03:20 PM: Message edited by: Gene Carroll ]
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From: La Center, WA | IP: Logged |

Sam Dunham
PBS Member
Member # 2897

posted March 25, 2011 04:19 AM
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Stringrifles?

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Only by grace, undeserved merit

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From: Holiday Island Arkansas | IP: Logged |

Buck Rodgers
PBS Member
Member # 155

posted March 25, 2011 04:37 AM
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Sam I certainly respect your decision to withdrawl your membership if the change was made to the by-laws, however if they are just proposed perhaps you should challenge them and try to stop the changes from happening? I do not know much of the situation except that witch you wrote above and like I said I certainly understand (and have come real close to withdrawing my own membership in our state org) your not wantng to be a part of the changes.

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PBS campfires best place until we get to Heaven!!!!!!!!!!

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From: Indiana | IP: Logged |

John3

PBS Member
Member # 48

posted March 25, 2011 07:45 AM
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Gene how did the younger group gain control of the org.? I do fully understand why you would not want to be represented by "that"...

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"There is no excellence in Archery without great labor".
Maurice Thompson 1879

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From: Villa Ridge, Missouri | IP: Logged |

guy p
PBS Member
Member # 86

posted March 25, 2011 08:48 AM
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It surely is problematic. I guess we could blame the Pitman Robertson strategy because what it boils down to is Fish and Game agency's need for dollars.

Somewhere along the line we have lost the moral compass of our human responsibility towards wildlife. I have not seen deer overly evolving in their abilities to escape their man made challenges here in the west. But we keep piling our advantages over them and then ask where our days afield and deer numbers have went.

It's pretty much all in the Sand County Almanac. Just getting easier to see it lift it's ugly head.
Thanks to the marketing vehicles that exist today.

If you go to the websight FMP (Full Moon Productions) you can get a belly full of the "new wave" bowhunter.

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gp

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From: Smithfeild Ut | IP: Logged |

Kevin Bahr
Councilman-at-Large
Member # 4

posted March 25, 2011 09:16 AM
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Not to reopen a can of worms best left alone, but this is EXACTLY the reason for having a waiting period for Regular, voting membership. Nuff said.
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From: Central Illinois | IP: Logged |

guy p
PBS Member
Member # 86

posted March 25, 2011 09:38 AM
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Who's Nuff?

Guess I missed it when they passed the can.

Anyway. I decided to go to U tube and google FMP again. That led me to LTH pro-staffer (Live to Hunt). Anyway you can see an interview with the "young" guns that started FMP. They talk about long shots and their abilities. EXACTLY the reasons our wildlife board beat the bowhunters to death last year with a reduction of their season lengths and why well take it in the shorts again before a couple of the bowhunting haters retire from the board in May.

Why some of the manufacturers support these actions in the field is beyond me. Especially as it equates to selling products. The less opportunity equates into less sales in my mind, but then again....maybe I don't get it.

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gp

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From: Smithfeild Ut | IP: Logged |

P.J. Petiniot
PBS Member
Member # 24

posted March 25, 2011 09:38 AM
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Kevin just nailed it---This is the reason the PBS has the 2 year requirement-

ALso the reason you have to be sponsored in organization such as the UBI -- I like the idea of having one of your peers vouch for you---

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The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it.
- Mark Twain's Notebook

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From: Indiana | IP: Logged |

bofish-il

PBS Member
Member # 72

posted March 25, 2011 09:59 AM
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Unfortunately this is happening in a lot of different State Clubs.
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From: Canton, IL | IP: Logged |

ethan
PBS Member
Member # 125

posted March 25, 2011 10:39 AM
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Makes you sick doesn't it! It's all about the $$$$$ and how quick you can "succeed".

It's kind of like seeing how fast you can drive through somewhere like Yellowstone or Cade's Cove. What's the point if you don't enjoy the journey?!!
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From: cumberland plateau, tennessee | IP: Logged |

P.J. Petiniot
PBS Member
Member # 24

posted March 25, 2011 11:28 AM
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Ethan--You summed it up perfectly---

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The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it.
- Mark Twain's Notebook

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From: Indiana | IP: Logged |

J. Olson

PBS Member
Member # 220

posted March 25, 2011 11:47 AM
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Having been very, very active with our state bowhunting organization over the past decade, I can honestly say that the problem within the state organizations is not enough PBS minded people getting active within the organization. Too many great bowhunters with the right ethics who don't get active.

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Jameson Olson, proud member of the Indiana Bowhunter Association

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From: Huntington, Indiana | IP: Logged |

P.J. Petiniot
PBS Member
Member # 24

posted March 25, 2011 12:10 PM
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Jame--WHat happens with PBS minded individuals is they get sick of messing with some of the dufusses that get involved in various state orgs---

There was a point where the IBA was a total embarrassment, where I would not be a member and be affiliated with what was going on---I tried to stay involved, tried to stay active and tried to steer some of the obviously incompetent people in the right direction---Those were dark days in the organization and all organizations have encountered it at some point.

WHen an organization with a storied, esteemed past all of the sudden is being ran by people that are either self serving, incompetent or corrupt, the old members and any potential members that figure that out run like roaches from the kitchen light-

The IBA is being manned by ethical, competent and dedicated individuals and that is the only reason I am a member.

The story of the IBA's rise, decline and fall has been repeated in almost every state bowhunting organization across the nation-

Jame-My mindset was "Life is to short to surround yourself with stupid people" and I saved my money, time and energy for more worthwhile entities.

I truly doubt the IBA can ever 100% recover from these days and that is the reason the membership has remained so low for so long. I know at least a hundred individuals that were long time members that will never join again. Nothing I can say or do to change their minds- The same goes for other organizations that forget where they came from and what their responsibilities are-This is the reson I am no longer an NRA member as well-

The IBA is on the right track these days but the days of getting hundreds of people to show up at a public meeting on their behalf are over I'm afraid-

My advice to the O.P. is this--These are proposals-Don't give up yet--Sit down, put your thoughts to paper and put down why these are bad ideas, why it will hurt the org and the hunters too. Go to your meetings and be passionate and persuasive with your argument- Make a stand, make your point and fight the good fight-If you lose, then walk away with your head held high knowing you did all you could--

Just my thoughts and the tactics I used;)

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The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it.
- Mark Twain's Notebook

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From: Indiana | IP: Logged |

J. Olson

PBS Member
Member # 220

posted March 25, 2011 12:44 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by P.J. Petiniot:
The IBA is on the right track these days but the days of getting hundreds of people to show up at a public meeting on their behalf are over I'm afraid-
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My point exactly P.J. The only reason the IBA is on the right track is because good people got involved rather than quit. But it's tough to keep moving forward when you have to beg people to run for office. It's sad. Lack of participation by the right people and too much participation by the wrong people can ruin an organization and we witnessed that with the IBA. I did some soul searching back in the day when the IBA was constantly embarrassing itself. I decided I could either quit or get active and try to change things. That being said, I certainly don't blame people who quit back then. But I don't think that helped things at all.

The state organizations are the core of protecting bowhunting in this country. But that's just my opinion.



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Jameson Olson, proud member of the Indiana Bowhunter Association

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From: Huntington, Indiana | IP: Logged |

Sam Dunham
PBS Member
Member # 2897

posted March 25, 2011 02:08 PM
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"Life is to short to surround yourself with stupid people"

I like this PJ!!!!!

A lot of, or most of the Orgs. are money Market driven these days. Many of them do not have the participation and support they need from their membership base to be stable. Those who sit in the power base see an opening for either monetary support or more coverage as an opportunity to grow their membership. The problem with this is you have to integrate the sponsorship with the membership in order to fulfill the support. Some state Game and Fish say that they included Xbows to get the Archery management kill ratio up. Some say they did it to gain more participation. The real reason is the Market pressure exerted by the Manufacturers. They have thrown big money for adds and sponsorships in every publication they can. They even advertise in home states G&F publication.

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Only by grace, undeserved merit

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From: Holiday Island Arkansas | IP: Logged |


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PostPosted: March 25th, 2011, 9:28 pm 
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Gene Carroll
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posted March 25, 2011 03:39 PM
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By the way,

I edited my post above concerning my affiliation with WSB.... I have tried contacting them concerning the direction in which the current new leadership is steering the WSB with it's new agenda.... They have failed to reply to any of my concerns.

If they, at some point, change their stance on these "By Law's" and equipment changes, I will be happy to lay down my money, re-join, and become a productive member.

Gene
Gene

[ March 25, 2011, 05:58 PM: Message edited by: Gene Carroll ]
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From: La Center, WA | IP: Logged |

Bryce Lambley

PBS Member
Member # 130

posted March 25, 2011 10:03 PM
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There have been a couple, maybe three times in the past 27 years I've been unhappy with action the Nebraska Bowhunters Association has taken, but none have pushed me as far as Gene feels pushed. Of course each of us has to decide where that tipping point is. I think the one thing that would do it for me is if the NBA began allowing crossbows at our events; then I would quit. But until then, I've felt that I have more power by staying a member and working to improve the organization (when it needs it) from the inside.

One danger in bailing on a close issue like this, is if the organization thinks they lose a few like the original poster in this case, but gain more people than they'd lose in the long run. I think this is part of what's driving the crossbow acceptance in some states.

On the actual matter at hand, I find it a little unusual (if I have it right) that P&Y doesn't allow Luminocks but does allow 85% letoff. I find it strange, but then again I fully support P&Y's ability to make their own rules for their own club. Even though I'm not a member, I've defended their right to do so in numerous internet attacks on P&Y.

Personally, I'm not so sure I'm against lighted nocks. I don't see it actually helping me kill anything or making my shooting easier. I do see it as helping make recovery of my arrow or game a bit easier in some cases and am having a hard time seeing that as bad unless it would encourage people to take bad shots they wouldn't otherwise. I've never used one, but I am intrigued by them.

I've been a little consumed with the crossbow and Game Dept. issues in our states so haven't been paying much attention to this issue, but feel strongly that laser sights and the like don't belong on a hunting bow.
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Sam Dunham
PBS Member
Member # 2897

posted March 25, 2011 10:13 PM
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"Luminocks" really show the path of the arrow at dusk. I have used them for a tuning aid.

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From: Holiday Island Arkansas | IP: Logged |


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PostPosted: March 25th, 2011, 10:32 pm 
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Gene Carroll
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Member # 2507

posted March 25, 2011 03:39 PM
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By the way,

I edited my post above concerning my affiliation with WSB.... I have tried contacting them concerning the direction in which the current new leadership is steering the WSB with it's new agenda.... They have failed to reply to any of my concerns.

If they, at some point, change their stance on these "By Law's" and equipment changes, I will be happy to lay down my money, re-join, and become a productive member.

Gene
Gene

[ March 25, 2011, 05:58 PM: Message edited by: Gene Carroll ]
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From: La Center, WA | IP: Logged |

Bryce Lambley

PBS Member
Member # 130

posted March 25, 2011 10:03 PM
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There have been a couple, maybe three times in the past 27 years I've been unhappy with action the Nebraska Bowhunters Association has taken, but none have pushed me as far as Gene feels pushed. Of course each of us has to decide where that tipping point is. I think the one thing that would do it for me is if the NBA began allowing crossbows at our events; then I would quit. But until then, I've felt that I have more power by staying a member and working to improve the organization (when it needs it) from the inside.

One danger in bailing on a close issue like this, is if the organization thinks they lose a few like the original poster in this case, but gain more people than they'd lose in the long run. I think this is part of what's driving the crossbow acceptance in some states.

On the actual matter at hand, I find it a little unusual (if I have it right) that P&Y doesn't allow Luminocks but does allow 85% letoff. I find it strange, but then again I fully support P&Y's ability to make their own rules for their own club. Even though I'm not a member, I've defended their right to do so in numerous internet attacks on P&Y.

Personally, I'm not so sure I'm against lighted nocks. I don't see it actually helping me kill anything or making my shooting easier. I do see it as helping make recovery of my arrow or game a bit easier in some cases and am having a hard time seeing that as bad unless it would encourage people to take bad shots they wouldn't otherwise. I've never used one, but I am intrigued by them.

I've been a little consumed with the crossbow and Game Dept. issues in our states so haven't been paying much attention to this issue, but feel strongly that laser sights and the like don't belong on a hunting bow.
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Sam Dunham
PBS Member
Member # 2897

posted March 25, 2011 10:13 PM
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"Luminocks" really show the path of the arrow at dusk. I have used them for a tuning aid.

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Only by grace, undeserved merit

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From: Holiday Island Arkansas | IP: Logged |


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PostPosted: March 26th, 2011, 7:15 pm 
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While I understand the frutration that can result from a change in leadership in any organization, I am wont to disagree with resigning from said group. I believe that it becomes imperative on members to stay with the organization and do all that they can to bring the group as a whole back to the core values and beliefs that the organization was founded upon. It is far to easy to resign and then all too often these ex-members take to derogatory comments and "sniping" of the current group leaders. Stay with the organization! The organization needs input from all points of view. Without a variety of viewpoints, the organization becomes weak and one sided. Just my two cents....


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PostPosted: March 26th, 2011, 8:13 pm 
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In my letter to WSB, I asked in fact, if this was the case and if they were in fact pushing it.... I asked for return correspondence concerning what I feel to be an important issue.. They evidently choose not to respond, as I have recieved nothing in reply.. I therefore, asked that if this is in deed the way they were heading, that my name be striken from the membership roster. As I personally did not want to be represented in such a manner...

The last rule #7 being... "BY THE USE OF ELECTRONIC DEVICES FOR ATTRACTING, LOCATING, OR PURSUEING GAME OR GUIDING THE HUNTER TO SUCH GAME, OR BY THE USE OF A BOW OR ARROW TO WHICH ANY ELECTRONIC DEVICE IS ATTACHED"

As too Washington adopting their regulations around "Fair Chase" as origionally defined by Pope and Young ... this was implemented as to the hunting and harvesting of big game in a fair and ethical manner...

P $ Y, has since changed their guide lines to allow several things that were not in effect at the time of adoption of their guide lines by Wash State... In no way did they, at that time include any of the hi-tech along with %'s of let off, ect. that P $ Y had since adopted.... Their changes were adopted on a National Level.. I'm trying to preserve our's at a state level.

I realize, I am only one person. However, these changes are being pushed to increase membership [" If it gains 100 new member's it's worth it"]..

I am also trying to awaken those new "enlightened" leaders, that actions such as mine, and possibly threats to do the same by other current member's, may in fact show that pehaps they are weilding a double edged sword that could possibly reduce their membership numbers.

I have in no way "Given Up the Fight". I am still an active member in the Traditional Bowhunters of Wash. A rather large group. which is definately against such changes which would exclude of the "Rules of Fair Chase" in the setting of future hunting legislation and the guidelines it may establish for future generations.

Gene Carroll
BTW, Steve why does your picture show next to my name in the above post 's made by me??
Are you that much better looking that me :?


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PostPosted: March 27th, 2011, 6:56 am 
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Gene,

The only way we could bring content from the old boad to this new one was to copy and paste. We are still brining old threads over and unfortunately, they will not look as good or be as east to read as the new ones started here.

Bryan has put a tutorial up on how to post pictures within your posts and how to get that avatar pic next to your name.


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PostPosted: March 27th, 2011, 4:17 pm 
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Well looks like I have a bit of "studding up to do". I'll work thru all of it I'm pretty sure... I was sure it was something like that, when I saw Steve's pictures next to those old posts...

Gene


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