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 Post subject: Not good for Utah
PostPosted: February 9th, 2015, 6:08 pm 
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Just read thing in the news paper
Not good

http://le.utah.gov/~2015/bills/static/SB0045.html


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 Post subject: Re: Not good for Utah
PostPosted: February 9th, 2015, 6:35 pm 
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Nope. Saw Missouri DNR was proposing the same thing. http://www.realtree.com/brow-tines-and- ... -to-change


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 Post subject: Re: Not good for Utah
PostPosted: February 9th, 2015, 7:42 pm 
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we've had them along time here in Arkansas and it really changes things... everyone becomes an instant "bowhunter" it really sucks

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 Post subject: Re: Not good for Utah
PostPosted: February 10th, 2015, 1:31 am 
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The "Crossgun Industry" will not stop pushing until every state that has a bow season allows them in the bow season. Hold them off as long as you can, but in the end they will win. Very Very Sad!

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 Post subject: Re: Not good for Utah
PostPosted: February 10th, 2015, 6:09 am 
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I don't like it either, but I believe in the end they will become legal in basically every state.

From a strategic standpoint, the objective is to look down the road (study other states which have had them for a long time) and determine how they impact archery season and harvest rates. Use that knowledge to stay ahead of the crossbow and push for limitations on it whenever possible. When Ohio legalized them the ODNR made a statement about not lumping them in (statistically) with other archery gear and that Ohio would monitor the crossbow kill separately. This they have done, and the stats prove what crossbows accomplish. In Ohio the crossbow is statistically the number one archery weapon now. More deer are killed with crossbows than all other archery gear combined. This doesn't necessarily mean there are more crossbows afield than real bows. It likely means that crossbows are more effective and their users kill a disproportionate share of the overall archery harvest.

I think most any state will see the same thing. Humans will pick up and use the easiest legal tools they can for any job. It takes time, but the crossbow will not only be legal; it will likely become the dominant archery weapon in many states. The only way to fight these effects is to be able to prove them...with monitoring, records and stats on the crossbow. I actually think Ohio has a future crossroads coming, and one potential option is to limit the crossbow somehow in terms of season length or deer permit allocation. That won't happen until the state needs to reduce impact on the overall deer herd, but with deer numbers down it's not a far stretch. Look ahead and plan for what's coming.


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 Post subject: Re: Not good for Utah
PostPosted: February 10th, 2015, 8:53 am 
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Muzzleloaders are allocated their own season separate from the rifle season. ML's are primitive weapons when compared to modern rifles. How come crossbows aren't approached with the same mindset? Guess we are just running out of days to divide up among the different weapons of choice. Just don't like the way we are lumped with in cross-guns. I would think the first thing is keep the weapons separated from each other. Just amazes me that a gun stock with a trigger and, in some instances, scopes can be thrown in with a traditional stickbow. I understand the push for them by those who will profit for this. But where is the logic?


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 Post subject: Re: Not good for Utah
PostPosted: February 10th, 2015, 9:38 am 
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Hard to hold out when all other states have caved in. We can take a little comfort in knowing this would have happened over 20 years ago had PBS not step forward and said "no!" Hard to win the war when you are few in number and battling an industry that is well-funded. We may have lost the war but gave them hell for some time.


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 Post subject: Re: Not good for Utah
PostPosted: February 10th, 2015, 9:58 am 
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To overcome the obvious crossbow efficiency and % increase in using them in the archery season, the State of Michigan has eliminated the different deer licenses available (Archery and Firearm) in favor of just a deer license.

So those who think we can show how the crossbow has effected our Archery season, the manufactures, and their lobbying abilities, are leading the way in that game.

I hate to be the "Debbie Downer" here, but it is beyond upsetting to see it happen, and be unable to do nothing about it.

I see the crossbow mentality here at work, as every one of the guys in our shop who calls themselves Bowhunters had made the conversion to crossbows and talks up how great a Bowhunter they are. I've stopped trying to clutter their minds with facts. From my perspective, it's tiresome talking to a brick wall.


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 Post subject: Re: Not good for Utah
PostPosted: February 10th, 2015, 10:07 am 
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John Vargo wrote:
Hard to hold out when all other states have caved in. We can take a little comfort in knowing this would have happened over 20 years ago had PBS not step forward and said "no!" Hard to win the war when you are few in number and battling an industry that is well-funded. We may have lost the war but gave them hell for some time.



Hard for anybody in any DNR to fight it when the difference between a fully equiped, moden compound and cross bow are virtually non existent.

70 pound cross bow held at full draw if its an 80% model (which virtually everything being made today is at least that) you are holding back 14# at full draw--with a trigger. I can hold back a 14# bow at full draw and make a damn sandwich.

The ability to lay in wait is what makes the crossbow and today, modern compound bows non archery like. Any bowhunter worth their salt knows that its the draw that gets you caught. Eliminate having to draw when the animal is close you have eliminated about 85% of what could go wrong and cause you to get picked out. Take a bow that you can draw many moments before the animal can see you, lay in wait and hold the bow at full draw for an eternity, not much hard, challenging or archery like in that case IMO-- Make the bow a 50#er and you are only holding back 10#'s-- You can do that for minutes--

If any person or agency or organization thinks an 80-85% letoff compound with a trigger, lighted optic sight and a ridiculously short axel length is OK to hunt in general archery seasons, you do not have a leg to stand on where the crossgun is concerned, not a legitimate, reasoned, well thought out leg anyway-


Last edited by P.J. Petiniot on February 10th, 2015, 1:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Not good for Utah
PostPosted: February 10th, 2015, 10:57 am 
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Like all of you, I hate it, but this fight is lost. Crossbows are the single hottest category in the outdoor/hunting world right now. At least in my corner of the world, those that use them tend to be very inept woodsmen so they have not really had much of an impact yet. Local pawn shops are full of crossbows as many of the hunters realize that a modern compound, with a little practice, is a much more lethal weapon. Out west, with more limited game populations, I can see crossbows having much more impact. Not good, but not sure what we can do about it but promote our way to those open to listening.


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 Post subject: Re: Not good for Utah
PostPosted: February 10th, 2015, 4:29 pm 
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This ship has sailed. I wish it was different. I was at the ATA Show in January and saw as many crossbow booths as compound. Like PJ mentioned, it is a very difficult argument to justify a compound with 85% let-off and oppose a crossbow when speaking with legislatures or fish/game departments. They're the same animal; one is held vertical and the other horizontal. Yea, I know one is hand drawn, but the differences are minimal otherwise. There are possible converts to our way out there. They may even be shooting a compound crossbow now, but haven't been enlightened.

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 Post subject: Re: Not good for Utah
PostPosted: February 10th, 2015, 6:21 pm 
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It's the instant success mentality. People who don't enjoy all bowhunting is can buy a xbow and fill a tag quick. I fear that it will result in a larger archery season kill and if the the firearm hunters (the majority) get together it will result in shorter archery seasons because "we" are killing too many deer.


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 Post subject: Re: Not good for Utah
PostPosted: February 10th, 2015, 10:25 pm 
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Not sure if any of you are P&Y members, but they are really hot against the crossgun. In their latest magazine almost every column addressed the threat of the crossbow. Funny how things work! Compound bows have taken a huge hit in sales, but their counter parts sales have skyrocketed. The same can be said with regards to archery hunting license. The easy button is getting easier as technology advances rapidly. Looking back I wonder if our fight against the crossbow shouldn't have been with technology instead :cry:

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 Post subject: Re: Not good for Utah
PostPosted: February 11th, 2015, 5:55 am 
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Rob Burnham wrote:
Not sure if any of you are P&Y members, but they are really hot against the crossgun. In their latest magazine almost every column addressed the threat of the crossbow. Funny how things work! Compound bows have taken a huge hit in sales, but their counter parts sales have skyrocketed. The same can be said with regards to archery hunting license. The easy button is getting easier as technology advances rapidly. Looking back I wonder if our fight against the crossbow shouldn't have been with technology instead :cry:


I don't care for most aspects of technology when hunting, but it's fine when used correctly. Problem is that a large percentage abuse it. From a realistic standpoint, I don't think we ever did stand much chance of stopping the tech march afield. The strategy isn't about stopping it for most states. It's about managing it. As the crossbow overruns the compound and stickbow for archery supremacy, we need to acknowledge and point that out. If the crossbow makes compounds moot, is that a good thing or bad? If crossbow use reaches the point of taking too much of a bite out of seasonal harvests on big game, we shouldn't be afraid or unable to document that and encourage states to look ahead at developing strategies to apply limits on their use, while rewarding less tech-oriented sportsmen who have a lesser impact on game harvests.

I've said it before. The overwhelming acceptance and success of the crossbow could eventually turn out to be the dog which bites its owner on the ass.


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 Post subject: Re: Not good for Utah
PostPosted: February 11th, 2015, 7:02 am 
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One thing to jeep in mind ... Maybe this is a good thing ... Crossbow hunter by and large are pretty poor woodsman ... At least from the small sample I have met. For example, my sister in Law. She know nothing about hunting but killed one doe from a blind for meat and called it quits. Most of these hunters are either one and done or none and done. At least in PA it is not causing the disastrous impact I feared. I don't think the deer kill numbers have changed much at all.

.... Now, don't get me wrong, I HATE when I hear my SIL say that she is a bowhunter and that she killed a deer with a bow. And I DO tell her and her husband exactly what I think - to my wife's extreme displeasure; but in the end it has caused me only annoyance - no real impact on our hunting ... Yet.

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 Post subject: Re: Not good for Utah
PostPosted: February 15th, 2015, 6:56 am 
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I know I am going to get grief over this but here it goes. The upsetting thing is how other organizations namely the NRA whom most archers belong support the use of crossbows when it is beyond their primary interest. They lobbied in Pennsylvania for crossbow inclusion. So if you belong to the NRA your money is being used for crossbows. If you also belong to other organizations who are fighting crossbows your moneys are fighting each other.


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 Post subject: Re: Not good for Utah
PostPosted: February 15th, 2015, 10:06 am 
Ted Kinney wrote:
One thing to jeep in mind ...


I guess a person must be very open-minded (i.e. large brain cavity) in order to have a "jeep" in it!


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 Post subject: Re: Not good for Utah
PostPosted: February 15th, 2015, 10:27 am 
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:D

.... I take no accountability for typos from a combination of iPhone keyboards and fat fingers

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 Post subject: Re: Not good for Utah
PostPosted: February 16th, 2015, 3:41 pm 
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Ken, I turned my back on the NRA quite a few years ago for the reason you mentioned along with Chuck Adams writing under an archery column heading. When they started promoting the crossbow inclusion into the general archery season, it was time to move on. While living in Illinois, the NRA and ATA lobbied the IDNR against the wishes of the United Bowhunters of Illinois for crossbow use for all. Is it possible they see the crossbow as a gun issue? Then perhaps it makes sense after all when you read between the lines.

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 Post subject: Re: Not good for Utah
PostPosted: February 16th, 2015, 4:50 pm 
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I would be for approaching the NRA via the JOC program to see if we could not get them to understand what they are doing (pitting hard core hunters against casual/opportunistic Sunday "sportsman/persons") and maybe get them to embrace the idea of traditional hunting being about the challenge.

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 Post subject: Re: Not good for Utah
PostPosted: February 16th, 2015, 4:52 pm 
I was a NRA Life Member for probably 20 plus years and sent in my resignation letter (about 15 years ago) when they did in IA what Mark said about IL.


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