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 Post subject: Small diameter shafts!
PostPosted: November 6th, 2014, 7:51 pm 
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I'm just wondering if anyone has used them? The Easton FMJ Injexion shafts look like they would work well for us guys looking for max penetration potential.

Abowyer does make "deep six" threaded broadhead adaptors which would allow us to continue using your favorite glue on head!

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PostPosted: November 8th, 2014, 12:32 am 
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I have friends that shoot FMJ with great success. I shoot a carbon (Can't remember what they are at the moment) that are pretty skinny with good success. Buy them, tune them and shoot the heck out of them.


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PostPosted: November 8th, 2014, 4:42 am 
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A lot of us remember when carbon shafts hit the scene and most of them were small diameter. Unfortunately they were also thin-walled and lightweight, so they performed best at what they were intended for: target shooting and use in fast compound bows. Many of us scorned them back then as being too light and flimsy for big game.

Cut to the present and you can find carbon shafts stout enough for water buffalo and anything else on the planet. Weights can be whatever you want them to be. I haven't shot the FMJ shafts from Easton, but I've heard they are very straight and strong. I wouldn't hesitate to shoot them, except that I've got a perfect-performing arrow in my Easton Axis shafts. I buy the shafts and then strip the decals. From that point I give them the full paint and crest treatment I would cedar. I love how they shoot, and their penetration is superb.


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PostPosted: November 8th, 2014, 8:03 am 
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I've shot those Axis shafts quite a lot with my compound, and the FMJ's as well.

Hey Kevin have you looked into the Axis Traditional shafts from Easton? They have a woodgrain print, "bone" colored nocks. They are modeled after Doug Easton's arrows he used to make back in the day.

The Deep Six shafts that I was referring to are actually smaller in diameter than the Axis shafts. The Deep Six shafts are small enough that the regular HIT inserts from Easton do not fit. I believe the inside diameter is .166 or so.

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PostPosted: November 8th, 2014, 9:24 am 
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Jacob, a couple winters ago, I was at an Archery Shoot with another PBS member, Shane Close. He was shooting his Wes Wallace recurve and I was shooting my Tall Tines "D" shaped longbow. The bow's poundage were similar (low 50's #)and our arrow weights were 630 grains each. I was shooting Douglas fir and Shane was shooting FMj's.

I had been noticing that Shane's shafts were getting a good amount of penetration compared to my same weight wood shafts. I just kept telling myself he kept hitting a "softer" spot in the target (just so happened to be a couple inches from my arrow each time, go figure).

So when we approached a bear target about 1/2 way thru the course, I asked Shane to help me do a little experiment. I said, instead of shooting at the bear, let's shoot at the metal oil drum placed next to the bear to imitate a bait barrel. He looked at me kinda funny and said "You go first".

I stepped up at about 15 yards and upon reaching my anchor, I let the Douglas fir shaft fly. I was rewarded with a LOUD "Bong" noise, and my arrow bounced directly back towards me landing a few feet in front of me. My first conclusion was that my arrow was spined perfectly for my bow for it to come straight back. Upon inspection, there was nothing wrong with my arrow shaft.

Now it was Shane's turn. He stood where I stood, drew, reached anchor and let his FMJ fly. I thought the same scenario was going to play out, but to my astonishment, his arrow penetrated the steel barrel. My first thought was that he was shooting a recurve and I was shooting a longbow. That had to be the only difference, and a lot of guys would leave the experiment right there and draw their own conclusions not really knowing why, or what really just happened.

We retrieved Shane's arrow and me not being convinced that his recurve was performing that much better than my longbow, I said, "let's switch arrows and do it again". Shane was up for a little fun and agreed.

This time, Shane took first shot, and upon reaching anchor the Douglas fir shaft (same one I shot), shot from his Recurve, was on its way on a collision course with the center of the barrel. Upon contact, we were rewarded with a LOUD "Bong" and the arrow bounced on a straight line right back towards him, telling us the arrow was spined perfectly for his bow as well. To say we were both surprised, would be accurate. I figured the arrow would either shatter or penetrate the barrel.

Now it was my turn. I knocked the FMJ, drew, hit anchor and let it fly. To everyone's surprise, the FMJ shot from the longbow penetrated the barrel. That right there made me a believer in FOC and skinny shafts. I finished the second 1/2 of the course with that same Douglas fir shaft that we experimented with and never had a problem with it. Considering what that arrow just went thru, I would say that speaks volumes for the durability of Douglas fir shafts (I DO NOT recommend anyone try this because of differing wood characteristics).

Now, with all that being said, I'm hard headed. I've continued to hunt with my Douglas fir shafts the past 2 years and killed 6 beautiful animals with them (Mule Deer, Canadian black bear, 2 squirrels , ground hog and a rabbit). Like I said, I became a true believer in FOC and skinny shafts, but I too know that woods work just fine.

Last winter, when I decided to make moose hunting a reality in the near future, I bought a dozen FMJ's and then I put together enough weight to give me 300 grains upfront. All I'm waiting for now is the delivery of my new longbow (55# Tall Tines Hybrid), and I will tune these FMJ's to fly perfect out of it, AND I will also build a set of wood arrows that too will fly perfect from the bow, and do another round of testing to find the best arrow shaft for the hunt I am planning. It's all part of the preparation and we owe it not only to ourselves, but the animals we hunt, to choose the proper equipment to ensure a quick humane kill.


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PostPosted: November 8th, 2014, 9:35 am 
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Thats pretty wild!

I have about a dozen wood shafts that Mark Baker and Walt Francis helped me build (thank you very much to both of you guys) and I really like them. I am hesitant to shoot them much because of how much work went into making them (had to use Marks grinder, Walts stains and paints, feather burner etc) that I am afraid of breaking one!

I do have one question-having a nee Talltines recurve built, do I need to have the arrows be 10gpp or higher? I think I want it to be 62-63# and am having troubke getting the FMJ/Axis shafts up that high unless I go to a 300 grain head (really prefer the profile of VPA's 200 grain head)

Has anyone put multiple HIT inserts inside of their FMJ/Axis shafts for more weight up front?

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PostPosted: November 8th, 2014, 2:56 pm 
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Mike's story parallels my own experiences closely...although I haven't done any barrel shooting. I'm pretty sure a physicist would study the various characteristics of arrow shafts and be able to summarize why the carbon penetrates as it does. I've noticed consistently deeper target penetration from my Axis shafts. I do buy the traditional (classic) woodgrain shafting from Easton and then custom finish them. As for inserts, I used to use the aluminum HIT units but have switched out to the full-length (extra weight) brass HIT inserts. Combined with a 175 grain 2-blade head and 75 grain steel broadhead adapter, I'm loading the front pretty good. Every deer I killed this year saw complete penetration and a broadhead buried into the turf. I'm hunting with a 58 (at my draw) pound static tip recurve which packs a good punch.


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PostPosted: November 9th, 2014, 7:27 am 
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I don't have any experiecne with the deep six shafts but have used the fmj's extensively and like them a lot. My experience with them parrallels what's already been said above. The fmj's are a little heavier than the axis traditionals. I'm shooting 400's and 340's with the 75 gr brass inserts and a 250 gr point. that puts me in the 630-660 gr rannge. The beman mfx is also a nice shaft and I'm still shooting them out of one bow although they have been discontinued.


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PostPosted: November 9th, 2014, 8:24 am 
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I did get some great advice from Steve Osminski about the FMJ shafts. The only weak point on them is the HIT insert which mates the broadheads ferrule up to the end of the shaft. The glue holding the insert in must be tough, so he recommended using jb weld on the insert!

Not 100% sure, and maybe Steve will chime in, but I'm prettu shre he foots his FMJ's as well.

I am trying to decide between the Axis style shafts and some Arrow Dynamics trad shafts, as I've heard the AD's are the easiest to tune and most forgiving of form issues.

Does anyone have experience using both?

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PostPosted: November 9th, 2014, 8:25 am 
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I apoligize for the spelling errors, typing this on my phone

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PostPosted: November 9th, 2014, 10:18 am 
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Here is a link to the day Shane and I were out on the range.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1528&hilit=Alaskan+adventure

If you click on the pictures, and zoom in, you will see the penetration differences between the FMJ shafts and the woods. My woodies were brown.

Shane made mention in the above thread, of switching to wood arrows. If I remember correctly, it was because of the quietness of the shot compared to the much louder sound when the FMJ shafts were shot. It didn't matter which bow the woodies were shot from, it was a very noticeable difference in sound, but the penetration of the FMj's, to me, is worth the trade off, and certain things can be done to quiet down a bow.


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PostPosted: November 9th, 2014, 10:59 am 
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1. JB Weld for the inserts has made footing the FMJ or any Axis/MFX shaft unnecessary. I have shot and destroyed 260g Snuffers and Judos on steel plate then screwed new broadheads on the same shaft and flown absolutely true. I have heard the have recently changed the JB Weld formulation so may have to look into that when I run out of this batch.

2. When adding weight forward it only makes sense to me to add the weight to the absolute farthest point forward so I change point weight in the head. It simplifies things in my head. I dont mess with those brass inserts. Why add weight behind the point? Not as effective as at the very end. Remember the teeter-totter when you were a kid? It also simplifies things for me. Every shaft is the same, I won't get confused...

Another thing that keeps me from being confused is I shoot full length shafts whether 300, 340, 400, or 500. It is MUCH easier to tune with point weight rather than length. Much.

3. Don't worry so much about arrow weight if you are shooting an Axis type shaft. I'd take a 500g Axis with a 250g head over ANY heavier wood arrow combination. 1000 times over and every time. I know therre are those that just love wood arrows; I am not one of them. Too many disappointments.

4. Penetration into foam is a terrible way to compare. Foam stops by friction. There is a HUGE difference in surface area for the friction to act upon to stop the arrow on a 23/64 wood shaft compared to an Axis shaft. FMJs will also have a much lower coefficient of friction than the wood. The penetration test into the barrel is not very accurate either. The head of the field point is much larger than the diameter of the Axis shaft. Once it goes in an inch or so there is NO resistance. The wood shaft has a longer bearing surface on the field point itself AND the shaft is the same diameter so it has drag on it IF it can get the MUCH larger diameter point thru the drum.

So, my great friend Mike Vines, you DID get the right answer but the test was flawed... :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: November 9th, 2014, 11:15 am 
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I need to keep going but it took me so long to type the above I didn ot want to lose it!

3. For all the reasons above I thing the Axis size shafts and speciffically the Full Metal Jacket version are a great choice for a hunting arrow. Additionally, they recover out of paradox quicker, they are closer to centershot with the small dia so are easy to tune to the bow, the composite nature of the FMJ is MUCH tougher (think solid wood bow riser vs. one with thing strips of glass or phenolic almost invisibly layered in) and give you the best of both worlds--an arrow much more resistant to bending (aluminum only downfall) with a very slick surface (carbon downfall), quieter than aliminum too.

Finally they are incredibly consistent. That is one of my biggest problems with wood...consistency. I need it.

With all that said, I am not jumping on any Deep Six Ultra thin shaft badwagon. In my opinion they are too much of a good thing. That may be in part to the 5 gallon bucket in the basement stuffed with FMJ shafts. If I was starting from scratch I would probably give them a try but I do not see them becoming very popular and would worry about obsolescence.


I know wood shafts are pretty and all but you can dress up the skinny stuff too.


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PostPosted: November 9th, 2014, 11:27 am 
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Steve Osminski wrote:

So, my great friend Mike Vines, you DID get the right answer but the test was flawed... :mrgreen:


Most of my tests have been flawed thru life (my parents just never understood that part of the equation).

Without having a dead critter on hand to perform tests on, I did what any other layman would do, and that was improvise.

Sitting here thinking (only one more day of sitting Post-opperation, so thinking will then come to an abrupt hault and I can get back to hunting)...What if I was to make a couple blocks of ballistic geletin? One for wood arrows, and one for the FMJ's. That could quite possibly give me the most accurate penetration test especially with an old leather coat on the front.

Like I said, I have plenty of time think right now, and testing will then take a back seat to hunting.

The only reason I have not made the switch yet is the fact that for Centuries, wood arrows have killed every game animal known to man, and continue to do so to this day.

Its more mental to me, and the first rule to success is having complete confidence in your equipment, and right now, I'm batting 1000, but moose hunting will be a complete different story.


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PostPosted: November 9th, 2014, 11:33 am 
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Just go to your friends farm and shoot a couple cows...

You will be in great shape on your current path. Lots of guys do it and have been doing it forever with wood. There are better options IMO.


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PostPosted: November 12th, 2014, 8:55 pm 
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Carbon is so much better than wood....but better doesn't make it the right choice for me. To me, I stress TO ME shooting carbon from a longbow just isn't right. It's hard and challenging to get good shooting, straight wood arrows but it's what I want. Anything else just kills my mojo.


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PostPosted: November 12th, 2014, 9:56 pm 
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I hear you DD...I've tried many times to come over to the (dark) mysterious wood side and every time I am crushed...I can't take it again :-)


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PostPosted: November 13th, 2014, 6:21 am 
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I think wood arrows are great...love them. The vast majority of my game animals taken over a period from 1986 to 2006 were killed with wood. I bought and used a lot of Port Orford cedar back in those days, and my arrows were as true as they came. I never once doubted them and still don't.

The change to carbon for me was about boredom. I needed a change and wanted to try a different shaft material. I also was getting tired of some aspects of using woods. Going to the small diameter carbons didn't change how I did anything really. It just gave me a very strong and very true shaft which stayed that way through all conditions. I noticed the increase in penetration quickly, and they just seemed to hit the target with more impact force...I know that's far from scientific. After 40 years of shooting a bow, my senses can tell when an arrow is hitting with real force and penetration. The Beman or Easton Axis has been very good to me, and I can't find a reason to go beyond that particular shaft. Despite the fact they are carbon tubes, I prefer to keep the arrows in my quiver as low tech as possible. I like the classic wood grain look, and I put them through a full treatment of crown-dipping, paint cresting and (often) custom spliced fletching. Tie on about 300+ grains of broadhead and insert weight up front, and they become real killers. They look good and perform better than I ever once imagined.

I should also add that I used to require 5-1/2" high profile feathers on my cedars for quick stabilization out of the bow. My Axis arrows are wearing 5" regular profile fletch and seem to exit the bow with perfect flight. Those 5-1/2" fletch were great, but they would definitely steer the arrow into a hard crosswind...saw that happen more than once on a windy caribou hunt.


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PostPosted: November 14th, 2014, 5:11 pm 
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[quote="Jacob Chapman"]Thats pretty wild!

I have about a dozen wood shafts that Mark Baker and Walt Francis helped me build (thank you very much to both of you guys) and I really like them. I am hesitant to shoot them much because of how much work went into making them (had to use Marks grinder, Walts stains and paints, feather burner etc) that I am afraid of breaking one!

I do have one question-having a nee Talltines recurve built, do I need to have the arrows be 10gpp or higher? I think I want it to be 62-63# and am having troubke getting the FMJ/Axis shafts up that high unless I go to a 300 grain head (really prefer the profile of VPA's 200 grain head)

Has anyone put multiple HIT inserts inside of their FMJ/Axis shafts for more weight up front?[/
quote]


To answer your last question, I have a friend who puts a 100 & a 75 grain HIT insert in his Berman MFX's. Says they have a stiffening effect on the shaft. I think it would, as he has a very long draw length and can still shoot 500 spine shafts with about 500+ grains of point weight with absolutely perfect flight.


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PostPosted: November 15th, 2014, 9:56 am 
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I have experienced that FMJ HIT are more stiff than the corrisponding spined arrows with standard inserts,for sure this has to do with the deepposition of the HIT inserts that being inside the shaft make them shorter to the flexion.
As Steve O made clear carbon are much more sensible to their lenght than to the point weight. So if you can cut your arrow short you can gain a lot of spine and you'll need an heck of a point to have the correct spine. For my experience the same shaft cut one inch shorter needs a 100 grain heavier point.

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PostPosted: November 17th, 2014, 7:07 pm 
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Gentlemen
Though I use wood from my longbow as a personal preference, I'm not opposed to using them with my recurve..I know, it makes no sense. Question: with the steel broadhead adapters having a wider diameter than many what's like the Axis, is there an available washer to make a smooth taper between the broadhead and shaft?


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PostPosted: November 17th, 2014, 7:40 pm 
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Don I believe Easton makes one, called the broadhead adapter ring (BAR) they are spine specific, check out 3Rivers Archery for details

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PostPosted: November 17th, 2014, 8:09 pm 
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Jacob,
Thanks for the tip!!


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PostPosted: November 18th, 2014, 6:01 am 
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Don,

I believe I tried those taper adapters several years ago. I abandoned them because they occupied a bit of space between the back of the broadhead (adapter) and the end of the shaft. That resulted in less thread engagement and a weaker package at the critical broadhead-to-shaft connection. They looked great but didn't work so great for me. You might find them good for your needs however. The small lip created by the larger head and adapter doesn't cause any issues in use, and I'm not even aware of it now. I do use a very small o-ring washer on the broadhead adapter shank which makes for a nice snug fit when tightened, but allows for some final broadhead alignment.


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PostPosted: November 18th, 2014, 10:10 am 
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Thanks for the tip Kevin, I will take a look @ using washers instead. I haven't used those BAR's before, just saw that 3Rivers offers them.

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PostPosted: November 19th, 2014, 4:45 pm 
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I don't have a lot to add to the great info already provided. I've shot the FMJs, old MFX, and the regular black Axis. Like Steve, I use JB weld for the inserts (a tip I got from him) and as he said with the FMJs there's not much need to foot them as the entire shaft is esentially footed. With the all carbon Axis however, I've found that footing them really helps. It's not that they crack from the insert pushing in, with the JB Weld they absolutely will not, but on an angled shot I've actually bent the threaded shank of several field tips and broadhead adapter which cracks the un-reinforced carbon at the tip of the arrow. I now use a 1" section of 1914 to foot my 340 Axis and a 1" section of 2016 for my 300 Axis. I've yet to break one since I've started doing this. The outside diameter of the 1914 and 2016 is very close to 5/16" which is the same as the back taper on most field tips so it also helps with the transition when pulling them from a target. As Kevin said, with broadheads its a non issue anyway.

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PostPosted: November 19th, 2014, 4:59 pm 
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Does anybody know what size aluminum shaft to foot a 400 spine Axis trad arrow?

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PostPosted: November 19th, 2014, 10:38 pm 
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Goofy question here, but are you guys touting the penetration qualities of carbons with field points hunt with field points? ;)

As a guy that shoots both wood and carbon, with the large hole I put in a game animal starting at the business end of the arrow, there is not much arrow drag on the way through. If you were shooting a 3/8" dowel and a 1/4 " carbon, maybe the difference would be substantial, but a 5/16" carbon and an 11/32" wood shaft following a large broadhead through an animal is inconsequential IMO.

What you are seeing shooting the same arrow weight and a field point with differing diameters is something as simple as why a 225# man sinks deeper in the snow when wearing a pair of size 12 boots when compared to a 225# standing in the snow wearing snow shoes.

I have been preparing to build some new POC's just because I haven't built any in a while. I also plan on adding weight to them by inserting some brass rod to add more weight FOC.

The ability to add weight FOC is one of the coolest things about Carbons. Having the ability to tune an arrow from front to back and make them as heavy or light as you wish is something worth considering.

Another thing I like about carbon arrows is that you can have 1 dz arrows in each of 3 spine/size ranges of carbons and be able to cover most any bow you own. There is great value in not having to have woods or aluminum arrows ranging from 35#-80#'s --

P.J.


Last edited by P.J. Petiniot on November 20th, 2014, 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: November 20th, 2014, 2:52 pm 
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Jacob Chapman wrote:
Does anybody know what size aluminum shaft to foot a 400 spine Axis trad arrow?


1916 or 2020.


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PostPosted: November 20th, 2014, 4:07 pm 
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Jacob Chapman wrote:
Does anybody know what size aluminum shaft to foot a 400 spine Axis trad arrow?


Ryan Sanpei just posted a reference chart on this topic the other day.

I will see if I can post it here-


I just dug up the Blog where Ryan discussed this topic.

According to the information he posted, a 400 Axis needs a 1914 shaft to use as a footing.

Here's the link-

http://rysanpei.blogspot.com/2014/11/ad ... rrows.html



P.J.


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